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MythShow.com Introductions and Overview:

Welcome to the Myth Show, where timeless stories are discussed and brought to life. I am your host, Gregory Lemon and this is episode nine. This show is for those who would like to know more about the wide and fascinating field of mythology, folk lore, and fairy tales.

During this episode I’ll discuss Trolls and Ogres, defined in traditional and modern settings. After the essay I’ll share some updates about the MythShow and what is coming in the future.

The music for this podcast is provided by Jon Schmidt at jonschmidt.com

Main Topic: Fairy Tale Bad Guys – Trolls and Ogres

The essay for this episode started began as a comment left on the MythShow.com web site. A portion of the post written by “L-M” says:

Thanks for this wonderful podcast. I’m an aspiring librarian and it’s wonderful to be able to combine education relevant to my future job and podcasts. [...] I have been wondering about the difference between a troll and an ogre. Here (in Norway) they’re always referred to as trolls (though it’s of course pronounced differently in Norwegian than in English). I’ve heard troll used in English as well, but until the movie Shrek I’d never heard the expression ogre.

What a great topic. Through this essay, I’ll define the characteristics of and differences between trolls and ogres. I’ll use traditional and modern examples throughout the essay.

Most of the traditional examples that I will use in this essay comes from Andrew Lang’s “Coloured Fairy Books”. These books were originally compiled between 1889 and 1910 and are now in the United States public domain. Andrew Lang did not write these tales but selected the tales that others translated from other languages. These books represent the first time many of these tales were translated into English. Another book I found tales in was “The Oak-Tree Fairy Book” by Clifton Johnson. (Links to these books will be in the show notes.) Modern examples will come from a variety of sources, but primarily modern fantasy.

Trolls Defined

I began researching trolls by looking at the etymology of the word. Something interesting was that the English word “troll” has two different sources. Using the Merriam-Webster English dictionary, the first couple of definitions used the worlds that descended form the Middle English and Anglo-French languages. This “troll” described a style of fishing where the bait is usually pulled through the water, often behind a boat.

It was when I looked for the Norwegian etymology, I found the kind of troll that I was looking for. A troll was defined as “A supernatural being, [...] especially a grotesque humanoid creature living in caves or hills or under bridges.”

Traditional Definitions for Trolls

The usage of trolls through earlier literature describes trolls on the sliding scale from very monster to very human. The following comes from the Wikipedia entry on Trolls:

“[The] of two main traditions regarding the use of troll can be discerned. In the first tradition, the troll is large, brutish and a direct descendant from the Norse jötnar. They are often described as ugly or having beastly features like tusks or cyclopic eyes. This is the tradition which has come to dominate fairy tales and legends, but it is also the prominent concept of troll in Norway. As a rule of thumb, what would be called a ‘troll’ in Norway would in Denmark and Sweden be a ‘giant’ [...].

“The second tradition is most prominent in southern Scandinavia. Conversely, what would be called trolls in southern Sweden and Denmark would be called huldrefolk in Norway and vitterfolk in northern Sweden. The south-Scandinavian term probably originate in a generalization of the terms haugtrold (mound-troll) or bergtroll (mountain-troll), as trolls in this tradition are residents of the underground.

These trolls are very human-like in appearance. Sometimes they had a tail hidden in their clothing, but even that is not a definite. Many of these trolls had a single lock of hair that no human could comb, whereas the rest was generally messy. A frequent way of telling a human-looking troll in folklore is to look at what it is wearing: Troll women in particular were often too elegantly dressed to be human women moving around in the forest. They could attract human males to do their bidding, or simply as mates or pets. Later these would be found wandering, decades later, with no memory of what had happened to them in a troll woman’s care.”

(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls )

When trying to find an example of Trolls in a Fairy Tale, I found the story of “Dapplegrim.” In this Norwegian fairy tale, the youngest of twelve sons and his horse named “Dapplegrim” rescue the king’s daughter who has been taken off by a troll up into the high mountains. The troll was not described at all but was the obstacle for the young man and his horse.

Another fairy tale example of a troll come from the Norwegian story of the Billy Goats Gruff. Here the three billy goats want to cross a bridge but is blocked by the troll under the bridge.

Modern Examples of Trolls

I seemed to be able to find recent examples of trolls easier than those used in traditional tales. In modern fantasy, trolls are often described as large humanoid monsters that have little intelligence. It seems the Norse “jötnar” definition of trolls is most used today. In the fantastical world of Middle Earth that served as the setting for Tolkien’s “The Lord of the Rings” and “The Hobbit”, trolls were threatening creatures that were often found working for the evil influences or at least against the protagonist and his fellow heroes. Tolkien created many sub-types of trolls just as different kind of trolls could be found in traditional fairy tales. His trolls included stone, hill, cave, mountain, snow and the unpronounceable Olg-hai.

Trolls also appear in J. K. Rowling’s Harry Potter books. It was a dim-witted mountain troll in the girls bathroom that solidified the friendship between Harry, Ron, and Hermione during their first year at Hogwarts.

(And now, it’s time for a completely pointless, yet plausible related tangent!)

Speaking of Harry Potter, I would like to take this moment to thank my loving and patient wife who allowed me to devour Harry Potter and the Deathly Hallows in the 46 hours after I got it at the mid-night release party where I recorded the Special Edition #3 Episode. She was then able to take her turn and finished by the following Saturday. Excellent book, well worth the wait!

In Terry Pratchett’s DiscWorld novels, he provides an excellent contrast to the traditional roles that trolls often play in literature. His trolls have become a more civilized race, working in different professions and integrating with other races. While they are still humanoid in shape, they are made of a “metamorphorical rock”. The differences of mannerisms an intelligence between the trolls in his books depends of the stones of minerals that the trolls are made of.

Ogres Defined

Going back to the original question, L-M had not heard the term “ogre” until seeing the movie Shrek, which features the ogre portrayed by Mike Meyers using a Scottish accent. Merriam-Websters describes an ogre as “a hideous giant of fairy tales and folklore that feeds on human beings.” This may explain why during the opening scene of Shrek we see his with clear jars of eyeballs.

Merriam-Webster suggests that it is possible that “ogre” comes from the Latin name “Orcus”, god of the underworld and equivalent to the Greek God, Hades.

Traditional Definitions for Ogres

In the traditional definitions that I found of ogres, there was no mention of any physical characteristics that made them look any different that normals humans. In the tale of “Little Thumb” we meet a particularly cruel ogre. As you may remember from the previous fairy tale essay, I discussed the Aarne-Thompson method of classifying similar fairy tales. Little Thumb and the story of Hansel and Gretal are very similar. Both are about children of a poor patents that abandoned them in the woods. Where Hansel and Gretal found the witch living in the Gingerbread and candy house, Little Thumb, a boy the size of a man’s thumb, and his brothers try to find shelter in the house of an ogre and his wife. Here is a portion of that tale.

“They came at last to the house where this candle was, not without an abundance of fear: for very often they lost sight of it[...]. They knocked at the door, and a good woman came and opened it; she asked them what they would have.

“Little Thumb told her they were poor children who had been lost in the forest, and desired to lodge there for God’s sake.

“The woman, seeing them so very pretty, began to weep, and said to them:

“’Alas! poor babies; whither are ye come? Do ye know that this house belongs to a cruel ogre who eats up little children?’

“’Ah! dear madam,’ answered Little Thumb (who trembled every joint of him, as well as his brothers), ‘what shall we do? To be sure the wolves of the forest will devour us to-night if you refuse us to lie here; and so we would rather the gentleman should eat us; and perhaps he may take pity upon us, especially if you please to beg it of him.’

“The Ogre’s wife, who believed she could conceal them from her husband till morning, let them come in, and brought them to warm themselves at a very good fire; for there was a whole sheep upon the spit, roasting for the Ogre’s supper.”

“As they began to be a little warm they heard three or four great raps at the door; this was the Ogre, who had come home. Upon this she hid them under the bed and went to open the door. The Ogre presently asked if supper was ready and the wine drawn, and then sat himself down to table. The sheep was as yet all raw and bloody; but he liked it the better for that.”

Some things to note from this story are about the ogre’s wife. She was described as a “good woman” who had compassion on the children. She was never called an “ogress”, meaning a female ogre, so I don’t know if she was considered human or not. Also, she had to warn the children that an ogre lived there. I take that to mean that it was not obvious that an ogre lived there. Now, if Princess Fiona, the ogress wife of Shrek came to the door, you would know that she was an ogress but looking at her. But that was not the case here.

Now about the ogre, himself, after the children were informed that the good woman’s husband was an ogre, Little Thumb still referred to him as a gentleman. The definition of “gentleman” has changed since this tale was written. Traditionally, a “gentleman” was a man from a good family but not quite royalty who did not need to work for support. Today, a gentleman describes anyone with the positive characteristics a man should have. Any Jane Austin fans may be able to think of some quote-unquote “gentleman” who are not very gentlemanly. I would believe that Little Thumb is using the term gentleman in it original context

To be fair, some of the other ogre stories that I found also had no description of what the ogre’s looked like but the illustrations did show monstrous features. One story, entitled “The Ogre’s Wife” tells the story of a pretty girl who refused all of the potential suitors for some reason. Finally, her father said that whoever retrieves a pumpkin from the tall pole would win her hand in marriage. This passage describes the potential suitors:

“The daughter said she did not object; but her reason for not objecting was that she did not think any young man could climb so slender and lofty a pole. They sent notices far and wide and appointed a day for the climbers to show their agility. When the day came a crowd of young men presented themselves, and the last to arrive was handsomer and more beautifully dressed than any of the others. He was an ogre in disguise, but nobody knew him, and the young girl admired his appearance so much that she said to her mother, ‘I hope he will get the pumpkin’”

Well, this ogre did get the pumpkin and took her home. On the way back, the ogre was approached by many men asking for the clothing he borrowed back. By the end, the ogre had none of the fine clothing. Nothing was mentioned about his physical appearance changing, just that he no longer had the fine clothing. Regardless how he was dressed, he was a terrible husband and the young girl was eventually able to escape.

With these examples, it seems that the traditional definition of ogre is more related to the actions of the ogre, than being a different “species” than us homo sapiens. These ogres are horrible people, often cannibals. It is possible that the first time that an ogre was seen in a positive light, was Shrek.

Modern Examples of Ogres

The first modern example I’ll talk about is, of course, Shrek. The movie was loosely-based on the book “Shrek!” by William Steig. From the author’s web site, he describes the book by saying: “Shrek, a horrid little ogre, goes out into the world to find adventure and along the way encounters a witch, a knight in armor, a dragon, and, finally, a hideous princess, who’s even uglier than he is!”. Steig’s web site had some sample pages from the book and Shrek is pretty ugly. I want to emphasize that the movie was very loosely based on the book. In fact, one of the pictures shows Shrek’s parents kicking him out of the swamp.

The other examples of modern ogres can be found in many different fantasy stories. Unlike the ogres from traditional tales, these ogres more closely resemble the “jötnar” trolls. Blizzard, the software creators behind the Warcraft series and World of Warcraft uses ogres as one of the species that populates these worlds. They are a strong species between six and fifteen feet in height. Some of these ogres even have two heads.

My favorite ogres come from “Disney’s Adventures of the Gummi Bears”, a cartoon show from the mid-to-late 1980′s. They are the henchmen for the main protagonist that served as the comical relief for the animated cartoon. More often than not, they foiled their master’s evil plans.

Conclusion

This concludes this essay describing trolls and ogres from traditional tales and modern fantasy. I hope that this answers your question L-M. I enjoyed researching these subjects because of the many things that I found out about other than trolls and ogres. I found a bit about giants and other “fairy tale bad guys”, and I found a lot of great resources that will be very useful for future essays.

The resources for this essay came from many different web sites including: the Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary for the words troll and ogre. Wikipedia provided information on trolls and ogres, trolls from Middle-Earth, Discworld, Blizzard’s Warcraft, Disney’s Gummi Bear Adventures, and the Billy Goat’s Gruff. The tales of “Dapplegrim” and “Little Thumb” came from Andrew Lang’s Coloured Fairy Books found at MythFolkLore.net/andrewlang. The tale of “The Ogre’s Wife” came from mainlesson.com; Orcus, came from pantheon.org; and finally, information about the book “Shrek” that inspired the movie could be found at williamsteig.com.
The exact and additional links can be found at mythshow.com

Resources

Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/troll
http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/ogre
Wiktionary
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/troll
Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_%28Middle-earth%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discworld
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trolls_%28Discworld%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Billy_goats_gruff
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ogre_%28Warcraft%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Disney%27s_Adventures_of_the_Gummi_Bears
Dapplegrim (http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/097.htm)
Little Thumb (http://www.mythfolklore.net/andrewlang/304.htm)
Orcus (http://www.pantheon.org/articles/o/orcus.html)
The Ogre’s Wife (http://www.mainlesson.com/display.php?author=johnson&book=oak&story=wife)
http://www.williamsteig.com/shrek_fr.htm

Special Thanks

A special thanks goes to Jon Schmidt for making his music available for this podcast. To learn more about Jon and listen to his music, please visit his website at www.jonschmidt.com. A link to his website is also found at mythshow.com. All music in this podcast used with his permission.

That’s it for this show. Thanks everybody. Now go share a story!